S1 Bonus - Craig Maloney on Embracing the Creative Journey

Leo
Welcome to the Zen Habits podcast, where we dive into how to work with uncertainty, resistance, and fear around our meaningful work. This is for anyone who wants to create an impact in the world and cares deeply enough to do the work. I'm your host, Leo Babauta, creator of the Zen Habits blog.

Leo
Okay. I am here with my friend, Craig Maloney. Am I getting that right?

Craig
Yeah.

Leo
Not that hard of a name, but you always have to check.

Craig
You'd be surprised.

Leo
Really? Rhymes with baloney.

Craig
Exactly. There you go.

Leo
All right. And Craig is someone who, you know, just to give some background for anyone who's watching, I've known you for a number of years now, you're in my Fearless Living Academy and I would say one of the more active people in the community there. And and then before that was in Fearless Training. And you were one of the leaders in that as well, if I'm recalling correctly.

Craig
Yes. Also in Sea Change.

Leo
Oh, in Sea Change. Yeah. So like you've, you've been through the whole thing and you've been in a lot of the webinars and meetings that I've had. So I've known you pretty well over the years and you're actively participating in the current season of the podcast where you're taking on a project and working through it.

Craig
Correct.

Leo
Which I love to talk about, but before that, I want to give a little bit of context. So first of all, you're a programmer and game designer. Is that right?

Craig
Yes. So I've done a lot of programming. I've done some game design. I've been working in the interactive storytelling space, which is a kind of a weird space and whatnot. But yeah, and also doing stuff like role-playing game design. I've dabbled a little bit with board game design and whatnot. My wife will tell you about my wonderful cones of Dunshire type thing for all you Parks and Rec fans out there. But yeah, I've just been dabbling around with a lot of stuff.

Leo
Yeah, that, that is right up the image that I have of you. So that's perfect. Yeah. So like geeky, but, honestly, a lot of fun and just creative stuff. And so you've been working, dabbling, and doing different things over the years. And in fact, in, I remember in Fearless Training, you were working on at least a couple of games while you were in there. I love all of that. And then you were hit life through you, like pretty major curveball. Was it last year? Is that right?

Craig
It was in 2022, January just after my 50th birthday, around December time, I started having some issues and whatnot, and then come to find out after I got my little colonoscopy that it was stage four rectal cancer. So, well, malignant neoplasm of the rectum as they called it at the time. So that turned into several other scans and that became a diagnosis of not only do I have a rectal tumor, but I also have tumors in my liver and tumors on my lungs nose and such. Yeah. So that's my fun for the past couple of years.

Leo
I mean, pretty, pretty challenging stuff. Like, you know, you could say devastating.

Craig
For good. Yeah.

Leo
Yeah. And we don't have to go too deep into that, but I think it's really relevant to like the coaching conversation we're having today. So it's important to set that up. The thing that I've been present to you, you shared some of that with me, you know, so that was almost two years, you know, a year and a half, two years ago. I've been impressed actually by how you've been working with it. You're still active in Fearless Living Academy. You still, you still been working on a number of things for yourself, even though energy levels are really tough. You're going through a lot of medical stuff, chemo at the moment, if I'm getting that right.

Craig
Yes. Yes. I'm doing Lonsurf, which is a tablet form of chemo. And the trade name is Avastin. But it's also under several different generics and such.

Leo
And yet, you still have more hair than me. So that's.

Craig
Well, thank you. I appreciate it.

Leo
But you know, Maybe you can just give us a little bit of context on how that's been for your energy levels and maybe even mood and like ability to take things on.

Craig
Yeah. So it's been it's been challenging because the Lonsurf, they, they give you a little booklet. I call it like the basic set, you know, like the D and D basic set where they give you like three little booklets, a thermometer and some pill containers. And one of the booklets talks about your energy level and basically your energy level is going to be so completely warped by all this stuff. They even talk about, you know, start with your most important task first, because you're not going to have any energy for it later on.

So that's, that's one piece of it. And then the regular chemo regular, the Avastin that I've been taking for quite a while now has also been doing a lot of stuff with my energy as well. So I find myself taking a lot of naps, which my cat is very grateful for. But also finding that getting the energy to actually work on some of the projects that I have is, is pretty fleeting. Which weird too, is that I'll wake up late on most days. go through the day, you know, kind of pitter patter between my energy. And then at night I get my second wind. So I'll be like,

Leo
Oh really?

Craig
Yeah. No. And unfortunately it's where I really can't do a whole lot with it because it's like, I need to be up in the morning, but it's like, I want to work on all this stuff. And I'm not necessarily working all this stuff, but I'm at that point of relaxation and alertness and awake. So that causes a little bit of havoc with everything.

Leo
Oh, I see. And then has there been a lot of pain that you've been going through? And and also your ability to focus.

Craig
Not as much. I've been fortunate with that. Most of the stuff that's been happening has not been painful. Although there is that worry that at some point things will change. You know, right now, I, everyone will say, 'You don't look like you have cancer' and it's like, you know, right. I don't look like I have cancer, but I'm, I'm wondering at what point that will change and at what point that will, I will suddenly, you know, have to deal with more and more stuff like the other folks in chemo have been dealing with. That's a concern.

Leo
How have you been handling it emotionally? Like this is not easy journey for your end.

Craig
It's been kind of wackadoodle. So most of the time it's just powering through it in some ways. A lot of it is just focusing on what I can do at the moment. There's a, it's, it's a quote, unfortunately, I'm not going to remember the exact quote by Michael J. Fox, where he's talking about his own stuff. And the gist of it is you just focus on what you can do right now, because you really don't know what the future is going to hold. So, you know, why, why live in that? Why worry about, you know, facing all those various challenges when you don't necessarily have to yet.

Leo
Right. That's good advice and not always easy to follow.

Craig
Exactly.

Leo
And how have you been doing with following that?

Craig
Some days better than others. I mean, today was pretty much a so I talked to my doctor this morning about stuff. And, you know, prognosis is good, but my numbers are all a little out of whack. And so I'm, I'm starting to think, okay, what's going to happen next? Where am I going to be with all of this stuff?

Leo
Right. And so that, that seems natural.

Craig
Yeah, exactly, drains. It does drain a lot thinking you've noticed that looks like when you start to think about where this is going to go and what's next it's, it can be draining, which is, you know, when your energy budget is already lower than usual, like draining even more, it can be tough.

Craig
Exactly.

Leo
Yeah. Have you been able to like, every time I see you, you seem pretty upbeat and, you know, good sense of humor, able to not only laugh about things, but actually keep focusing, and I'm wondering, has there been anything that you've been doing to get yourself to still be upbeat and positive about things?

Craig
So there are, there are certain things. I have a weekly groups that I meet with, not necessarily cancer groups, but like programming groups and that. And I do get a little energized by talking with other folks about stuff. So I get that, you know, woo, everything's all fine and good, you know, sort of thing. But then, you know, the onstage is a lot better than the backstage. It's, it's not necessarily that I'm, I'm not being myself or anything. It's more of a, I am, I'm in the moment and engaged. So it, it seems a lot more like I'm, you know, get everything all together. As opposed to some of the backstage where it's like, everything is not fine. And that's why I blog about a lot of that stuff.

Leo
Yeah, actually I was going to mention your blog. I can't remember the exact thing is decaf. Can you maybe tell me?

Craig
It's decafbad.net. That's D E C A F as in the coffee B A D as in not good, dot net.

Leo
Okay. I actually highly recommend the blog. Go check it out. We'll put a link below this, but you've been blogging about this very stuff that we're talking about. So, a lot of lessons from that, a lot of, you know, ways you're dealing with challenges.

Craig
I've, I've also had a lot of folks, funnily enough come to me and say, thank you for talking about this in part, because a lot of folks don't feel like they can talk about this. Or if they do talk about this, it's going to somehow materially hurt them in some way.

Leo
Right.

Craig
So my, my thought is, so I went on disability back in on April 1st, first off this year, this year, because first off, it's a fantastic day. Because April fools. Also the day that Apple allegedly incorporated as a company as well. So like computer stuff, some geeky stuff that way, but also it felt like a new beginning for me and I've been trying to treat it as that, which has also made it a little frustrating because one of the things that I've always wanted to do is try and do full time game design, but doing full time game design means that you also have to sell games, which in a market of hundreds is not necessarily going to get you, or I shouldn't say market of hundreds, but where a success is selling a hundred copies of something like that.

And starting off with some of this stuff, it can get a little challenging. To, to try and make your mark and try and make a living off of it. So when I went on disability, it's like, yes, I finally had the opportunity to do all this stuff, and I've actually met some of my mentors. One gentleman Chris Crawford, who I dressed up as in fifth grade.

Leo
You actually met him.

Craig
I've actually met him online. Not actually in person. But I've met him online and we've gotten to know each other. So that's been really fantastic. You know, do meet your heroes. It's, it's been like, you know, a lot of stuff has been coalescing around this stuff and now there's the frustration of, I don't have the energy to work on all this stuff. And I'm not sure how much time I will have to work on all this stuff. Long term.

So it's, it's like winning the lottery and, or, or even better. There's that Twilight Zone episode where the gentleman, you know, stops time and finally has all the time to read all the books in the world and then manages to break his glasses to read. So that's, that's the feeling that I have with a lot of stuff.

Leo
Got it. Yeah. Okay. Thanks for sharing all of that, and I could ask probably a thousand questions about this, cause this is fascinating. But I wanted to make sure that everybody who's listening or watching has the context so that we can talk about what you might need support with today. I want to also just say that there's a way where we could be like, okay, it has to be specifically about cancer. If I don't have cancer, this doesn't relate to me.

First of all, this relates to anybody who is going through any kind of health stuff, and there's a lot of people out there who are going through not just cancer, but all kinds of difficult health, medical conditions and can relate to not having the energy, can relate to worrying about how much time do I have left, and all of that stuff that you've mentioned.

But second of all, what you have is an acute version of what I think all humans have. You know, it's obviously more challenging and intense for what you're going through, but just in terms of like the ability, the amount of energy that we have being discouraged by what we're going through. All of this stuff that you're facing other than the medical part is I think what we're all facing, just like more like front and center. And harder, but you're at a higher difficulty level than most of us, but the same basic stuff going on.

So I actually think that's a really fascinating thing to look at, because if we could look at how to work with yours, then other people were like, okay, well, I could work with mine. Probably. Okay. So what are you facing right now that's really challenging?

Craig
So the challenge I have, I've been working on a project that I started back in 2016. It's a role playing game based off of the webcomic Pepper and Carrot by David Revoy. Sorry, my French is not good at pronouncing names. Anyways, that has been something that has been going since 2016. I decided that that's going to be my project for this go around, and I am working on trying to get it shored up and get it so that it can be published at some point in time.

Leo
Okay.

Craig
The challenges with it are, it feels like I could work on this thing forever and still not finish it. The other challenge is that I am doing it in LaTeX, which everyone who's probably listening who has a dissertation is like going, Oh God. And so there's a lot of challenges. I'm not necessarily a designer and this is a very visual medium. So I'm doing a lot of the design myself. I'm using some templates that I found online. To try and at least shore it up in some way or other, so it feels like there's a lot that's going on with this, not only with the creativity part of it, but also the design part.

And then I am trying to find time in order to work on it in the day, which can be challenging because if I wake up late, well, there may be an appointment or something else like that, that type, you know, shrinks the amount of time that I have to work on this. And then if I get tired, well, then that pretty much throws that out the window as well. So it feels like I'm being squeezed on all ends on this in order to try and get anything going with it.

Leo
That makes sense. Has that completely stopped you? Or are you like...

Craig
It hasn't really stopped me. I keep coming back to it. There have been weeks, like this week is a chemo week. So I'll be having chemo tomorrow and then I'll be starting the Lonsurf as well. Lonsurf, the way that it's done is it's five pills, two days rest. And then once again, five pills morning and afternoon for five days, and then two days rest, and then two weeks of rest after that. And by the end of it, it gets really tiring.

It's basically trying to slow down your metabolism is trying to do a whole bunch of things where it's, it's, it's basically messing with a lot of your systems in order to try and get the cancer cells to no longer be able to thrive. And your cancer cells being your own cells, they tend to want to keep on thriving and whatnot. So it takes a lot of effort to try and get them to not want to keep thriving.

Leo
And what effects does that have on your ability to like work on this game? For example.

Craig
It makes it harder for me to portion out the amount of time that I need to do. Where it can feel like an hour is too little time. Because you have to ramp yourself up in order to get into it. It's getting that initial inertia of wanting to do. Getting into it. Cause what happens with me is if I get into something, I will continue going as far as I can, as long as I possibly can. I don't know if it's a manic episode, but it's basically like, okay, I'm now focused. It's just getting to that point of being able to get focused. That feels insurmountable. And especially if you're tired. Then it's like, well, I can put it off. I can keep putting it off, etcetera.

Leo
Yeah. You have good reason to, right?

Craig
Yeah.

Leo
Yeah. Okay. Is that the biggest challenge you've met? You mentioned a few here. So there was the first one was just like, I could be working on this forever. Next one was design stuff, you know you're not a designer and you're trying to work with a design language that isn't always easy to work with. And and then there's medical things that might be getting you on the way and cutting up your day, not able to focus on it. And then just like getting started, you know, getting yourself into the flow. And then once you're in it, it's great, but it's, it can be challenging to get into that, especially with all the other stuff.

So is there any piece of that that would be better to focus on for you?

Craig
I think the one piece that would be most helpful would be just getting started, and getting to where I feel like I can actually just keep going on a day to day basis. Okay. You know, certain days will be like, Oh, I can, I can do this on this particular day. And other days will be like, I can't do anything on this particular day. And so it's, it's pulling myself out of that, that spiral, if you will.

Leo
And is that, I don't know how literally true that is, that I can't do anything. Is that more of the way that it feels to you?

Craig
Some days it's more figurative than others. I mean, it's, it's not like I'm completely debilitated or bedridden or anything like that, more that it just feels insurmountable.

Leo
It feels insurmountable. And have you ever played with that and see if that's true or not?

Craig
I have. Yeah. There have been times where I've sat at the kitchen table with my laptop. Just for change of scenery and just sat there and just thought about it. And then just said, okay, well, I'm just going to do one small little piece of this, and then that one small piece of that becomes, you know, a two hour session of, oh, I couldn't do this, and now I am.

Leo
Does that become an obstacle where you're like, I know if I work on this, it's actually going to be two hours and not 10 minutes.

Craig
That can also happen as well, because if let's say I wake up at nine o'clock and let's say I have a 10 o'clock meeting or something like that, and I need to get ready. You know, it takes about a half hour to get ready. I've got that half hour time that I can do something with it. And that feels entirely too short. It's like, I don't want to necessarily start into this because I've got other, you know, breakfast, all this other stuff. And then it feels like, okay, I don't necessarily have enough time. If I start doing it for 10 minutes or something like that, is that going to be enough time? Am I going to start trying to yank myself out of this?

Leo
It's hard to yank out.

Craig
Yeah.

Leo
Yeah. Once you're in it, I can relate to that. For me, it's like, once I'm in it, it can be like, I kind of need to finish this piece that I'm on, my mind doesn't like to leave it unfinished, you know, to be like ripping me away from something can be annoying too, and other people will rip you away from it. Oh, you're in the middle of that.

Craig
Absolutely. And there've been times where a source of frustration has been, oh, okay. I need to get up and, and. Stop doing this thing. And it's like, no, no. You know, my little inner child is like yanking away. I don't want to go, you know.

Leo
Don't take me away from the playground.

Craig
Exactly.

Leo
Yeah, I can relate. Okay. So it looks like this, this would be a big one for you if you were able to shift something around it. So the 30 minutes before you have to get ready, that might be a little bit challenging. So let's just say you had a full hour.

Craig
Okay.

Leo
Okay. So you've got a full hour and it's just like getting into it feels a little bit insurmountable, especially if you've got some energy challenges with whatever you're going through medically. If you can take yourself to that, just kind of imagine that you're in that spot. What do you notice? What's present for you in that, in that moment?

Craig
In that moment, I notice some resistance to that.

Leo
Is that in form of like physical, like some kind of physical feeling or is it a thought?

Craig
More like a mental resistance, like, okay, you know, am I going to be able to do anything? Am I going to be able to do anything meaningful with this particular moment? Am I going to make some actual progress with this? And I mean, I can ramp it up like nobody's business. I mean, I'm a fantastic storyteller. So I start telling myself all those wonderful stories, you know, like is, is this, is this a role playing game or this thing that I'm doing actually going to make any kind of meaningful impact? Is it going to take more effort to get out there into the world and get it into people's hands and then it's worth. Am I gonna be able to make see it all the way through? I mean, I can come up with a million of them.

Leo
Right. And is it okay if I look a little bit under those? Okay. Kind of peek under the rocks.

Craig
Sure.

Leo
Not always a good idea. Like, oh, didn't wanna look there, but no, I'm kidding. But what are you worried about if, let's say you, it wasn't a meaningful thing. What if it didn't make an impact in the world? You know, you wasted your time...

Craig
Honestly, I've put things out there with other projects that I've worked on as I had a podcast open metal cast, I did a book called the mediocre programmer. I just tossed them out into the world. And funnily enough, people found them and people started doing things with them. I mean, one person actually translated the mediocre programmer into Spanish, which was amazing.

Leo
Yeah. It must've meant something.

Craig
Exactly. Yeah, exactly. So. I know that's false.

Leo
So you're intelligent and I think you could see that you've had some experiences, but there's a part of you that is worried about it.

Craig
Oh, no, absolutely.

Leo
Yeah. Let's just empower that for a moment and say, I really don't, you know, I'm worried that this is going to happen. And so my fear is if I spent all this time, it's not going to make an impact. It's going to be a waste. And like, what, what's your fear from that?

Craig
Oh, the fear is that it's, it's just going to, I'm going to, I'm going to put all this effort into whatever it is that I'm working on and nothing is going to come of it. It's just going to be wasted effort, you know?

Leo
And would that mean, is there anything that you would make that to mean about you from that fear? You know, not your...

Craig
Not necessarily. I know what you're trying to get at and I don't necessarily feel that. It's just more of a pragmatic engineering thing of putting in the effort, and having nothing come of it.

Leo
And what would be wrong with that?

Craig
Absolutely nothing, honestly, in the grand scheme of things.

Leo
Well, there's something. Your fear does...

Craig
Yeah. There's other things that I could be working on and that's part of it. Putting all that effort into something and not getting any benefit out of it, you know. Basically creating more heat than light out of this would be upsetting in some way.

Leo
Okay, I'm going to make an assertion. So there's a rational part of you that's like, absolutely nothing would be wrong with that. And my assertion is, well, that is true.

Craig
Yes.

Leo
Your fear actually believes there is something wrong with it. Otherwise, like, why is it trying to protect you? So like, what does your fear think is wrong? Like if you did it and nothing would come from it.

Craig
That folks wouldn't care for it, that it would somehow people go, why did you do this? What was the reasoning for putting all this effort into this thing? This is trash, terrible. This is a waste of a download, you know, all that other kind of stuff.

Leo
Okay. Got it. So that would be kind of what the fear is worried about. It's like, the people's judgment and reactions to it. Just like this waste of time, this terrible thing that you've done. Okay. Got it. Okay, great. Thanks for being willing to look at that. And I get there's a part of you that's, you know, wiser and more intelligent this like, you know, actually if I did it and no one cared, like it wouldn't be the end of the world, you know?

Craig
Right.

Leo
Okay. So what I, we'll back up a little bit. So what I was asking you to look at is like, what's present for you when you have that hour and it's really feeling insurmountable to start. And what you shared was, you start all these thoughts, this resistant thoughts come up like, you know, I don't know if I have enough time here. I don't know if it's going to make a difference. I don't know if I can move the needle. These aren't the exact words that you said, but something like things like this, and then it could even spin up even bigger.

Like this is, you know, I don't know if anyone's going to care about this, if this is going to make an impact, if it's going to be a huge waste of my time. And so the fear under those, so those thoughts come up from fear. And the fear is like, I'm going to put this out there. It's going to be a waste of time. No one's going to care, or I'm going to get a bunch of judgment about how terrible this is. And why did you even bother? Are we getting all of that?

Craig
Right. Well, there's another thing too. So being the kind of person that I am, I like to have a lot of projects. And so there are other projects that I could be working on. And so it's that feeling of, Oh, you put all this effort into this one thing and nothing really came out of it.

Leo
It could have been. Yeah. It's like a bad choice, right? Like you, you, I mean, it's an impactful choice. Like you could have spent... who knows how much life you have left, right?

Craig
Right.

Leo
You know, hopefully a long, I'm hoping many years, but yeah, but who knows is uncertain and with that precious time you have left, you completely wasted it.

Craig
Yeah.

Leo
And then how would that feel if, if that were to happen?

Craig
It would be disappointing if, if that were to happen. I mean, I know deep inside that, that there is still going to be stuff coming out of it that will benefit the world in some way, because a lot of that stuff went back into the Pepper and Cure wiki. As I was designing it.

Leo
That's the comic.

Craig
Yeah. That's the comic that I'm working on.

Leo
You didn't create, but...

Craig
I did not create, I did world building for it basically.

Leo
Oh, cool.

Craig
That's off camera. I've been working with.

Leo
Oh, really cool. So you contributed to the world building of this, and then now you're taking it and turning it into an RPG and it's, it's being put back into the wiki.

Craig
So the idea was, when I started it off, it was Hey, would you let me play around in this world a little bit and tell me all this stuff about what, what's in this world. And he's like, I don't have a whole heck of a lot. And it's like, Oh, cool. And then we just started building all this stuff.

Leo
Oh, that's cool.

Craig
Yeah, so there's, there's a lot of stuff that hasn't actually happened in the comic that sits in the wiki.

Leo
Oh, cool.

Craig
Yeah. So, and that also has become fodder for the actual RPG itself. So that's been, that's been interesting.

Leo
That, that is really interesting. So it sounds like it wouldn't be a complete waste, but there's still a fear that you might, you choose wrong. You could have been spending time somewhere else. Got it. Okay. Let's see. So these fears are present for you at that moment, and then usually from the fears, it sounds like you conclude this is insurmountable and like not do it for now. You're reliable to do it at some point, but like, right. You take that hour and just decide not to.

Craig
Well, or I just say, okay, you know, I'll, I'll work on this later on, you know, find something else to do, you know, read email, social media, all that other kind of stuff.

Leo
Yeah. And if that, if this happens, how often would this kind of scenario happen? Is it like once a week, once a day, three times a day?

Craig
At least once a, probably about once a day, I would say.

Leo
Okay. So there's daily this insurmountable time comes up and you're just like, Oh, I'm going to go check email instead. Which is, you know, reasonable and like, totally fine. Like there's nothing wrong with it, but if we added all of those up, there would be a lot of hours where you could have been doing something. How does that feel to like, look back on all that time that you could have spent?

Craig
Oh God. You want to talk about one of the wonderful things of regret that you carry around with you more than a bit.

Leo
Regret, a lot of regret. Okay. Got it. Here's what I'm noticing. Is that okay if I reflect what I'm seeing at this point? Okay, so you're up against something that feels insurmountable, you know, and part of that is like mental resistance, the mental resistance, if we dig below it, it's like, I'm going to do this and it will not matter, people judge it. And what I'm actually, you didn't say this, but my feeling is of regret and disappointment.

Craig
Yes.

Leo
And then, the other thing is you could have spent your time doing something else so instead of wasting your time with that, and there's regret and disappointment there as well. So. What you conclude from this fear and resistance is let's just not work on it. And then what that adds up to is hours of time each week where you could have, and looking back on it, you actually have given yourself some regret and disappointment.

So trying to avoid the regret and disappointment that would come with that. We actually give ourselves more. And that's not just you, this is actually how it always, we try and avoid our worst case scenario, and we actually give ourselves probably even worst case, even worst.

Craig
Worser.

Leo
Yeah, that's why we come up with these words. Worser. So as I reflect that to you, what are you hearing, noticing?

Craig
I'm noticing that that's happened an awful lot. There've been a lot of times where it's like, okay, I want to learn such and such. And I avoid it, find other things to do, all that kind of stuff, and spend a lot of time not really doing that. So it feels like a lot of wasted potential, a lot of wasted time.

Leo
I can relate. Yeah. I, this is something I relate really well to. And I want to invite anyone listening or watching to check in with yourself. Don't just be sitting out in the stands, like looking at Craig and saying, Oh yeah, poor dude. But actually like, is this something that that's there in your life? Can you spot that? Cause I would imagine actually, this is really present for a lot of us. Like I said, for you, there's some more acute stuff that's there, but this is not, this is a human thing that you're facing.

We all have limited lives. We all have limited energy and fears and not wanting to disappoint ourselves or be judged or have regrets. Okay. So what we've been looking at is like how it goes. So just kind of distinguishing some of this. And then the question is, how do you want it to go? So if you were to choose something else?

Craig
I would, I would like to be able to flip the switch in the morning or whenever, and just say, okay, I'm just going to work on this thing. And just see where it goes, you know, play it where it lies and all that kind of stuff, because I know this morning it was played around with the table of contents on there, which if anyone's ever done anything with LaTeX, you'll, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Where things were just kind of in a weird space. And it wasn't working out. And basically I felt like the whole half hour exercise just was completely.

Leo
I can relate. I always thought it was pronounced latex. I never heard it said, yeah. Okay. Got it. I learned something every time I talked to you. So, okay. So wait, so I was asking you, how do you want it to go? And you started to relate to, or actually... Yeah, recap that for me.

Craig
So the idea is that I could just be able to flip the switch and say, okay, I'm just going to focus on this thing and just see it all the way through wherever it happens to be. And over time, see progress in a good direction. And at some point be able to, to take a look at the project and say, okay, there is nothing more that I can add to this. Nothing to take away from this. It's done.

Leo
Got it. So a lot of what you said is around doing, and I just recorded an episode. You haven't listened to it yet, so you can be forgiven, but it was around being. And so like, is there a way that you want to feel or be as you, or experience all of this as you flip the switch?

Craig
Yeah, just present.

Leo
Present?

Craig
Yeah, without necessarily feeling like I have to be something else, you know, just be with whatever it is that I'm working on, and feel like I have enough momentum to see it through.

Leo
So I really love what you shared, and I want to try and see if we can uncover other stuff. So I'm going to try a different angle. Let's say this, this comes out, and you're really proud of it. Like it's something that you're, you're really happy you created. Maybe it's not the best-designed game in the world, 'cause that's not, you know, who you are, but like, it gives people an experience. And so what would that experience feel like for them?

Craig
What I would like for them to feel when it's all said and done is the joy that David has in his comic, I mean, it's an absolutely joyful comic, highly recommended peppercarrot.com. Just, it's a fantastic environment. It's a fantastic group of folks to work with on it. And it's just such a giving experience. And I want to be able to share that with other folks so that they can experience it.

Leo
Okay. So joy is the biggest theme of that. I love that. 'Cause you felt it. You felt that the joy of that comic that David created. And you're like, Oh, like you were inspired actually to share that, to create something that might spread that. And so this is your hope for people is to experience this kind of joy. Is there anything like that that you would like to, or any part of that you'd like to bring to the creation of the game? So this moment of flipping the switch.

Craig
Now that you mention it, yes, I would. Which is one of those things you kind of forget when you're busily creating something is that it's the reason that you showed up in the first place for this stuff.

Leo
Yeah.

Craig
Yeah, no, definitely. It shouldn't be a slog, honestly, to try and bring joy. Should it?

Leo
Well, it can be, I will say, so there's not a should or shouldn't here. So sometimes it probably will be like, that's just kind of how it goes. And what I'm hearing is, if you could remember in some way, then you might be able to get into that state of being that you originally were inspired by, you receive from David and that you'd like to bring to others.

What I will say is that if you decide to take this on and practice with it, the way that it goes is that you might actually be able to like, have some joy. And it's like, Oh, that's, you know, that was kind of joyful, but like, who cares? I'm just going to keep going. And then other days it's just like nothing, no joy for Craig, right? It's just like, you know, you don't get any joy today because you know, not only the fears we mentioned, but some of the other things you're up against.

So you'll get sucked back into the old thing. But if you keep practicing my experiences and what I've seen working with people is that you will start to create more and more of this. And it'll be easier and easier, more and more accessible. And I think actually, even if it never ends up in anyone's hands, you will at least have had some joyful experiences, which is our worst fears is like a waste of time. You can't waste time if you're having like a joyful time, right? That's actually a meaningful way to spend, you know, whatever years we have left.

Craig
Thank you.

Leo
Anything in that, that you're hearing for yourself, anything that you want to share?

Craig
It's, it's a reminder for me that a lot of this... I mean, the reason we do all this stuff is, is that we have some notional idea of what we want out of it in some way or other and keeping that first and foremost is really key, but also keeping that idea of, you know, this can be fun if you really want it to be fun. You know, I know people who are professional writers and that I know people who do all this stuff and it's like, yeah, it can be a pain in the butt, but you keep doing it because there's still that little dopamine hit that happens every now and again. It's like, Oh, you know, there's actually some joy in this stuff.

Leo
Yeah. I love that. And I'm glad I could be that reminder for you today. I want to be that reminder for anyone watching or listening because one of the things we forget as people creating something, you know, whether it's writing or games or music or art or whatever, is that we forget that we're creating it to create an experience. And that we could be having that experience that we're creating for others. We could bringing that in for ourselves.

I want to encourage anyone who's watching or listening to think about like, what is the experience you want to have? If people could have the most amazing experience, not the one you're afraid they're going to have, but the most amazing experience, what would it be like for them? You know, for some people it's like, oh, they would really allow themselves to be themselves.

So we can bring that into the creation of it. Are we allowing ourselves to be ourselves? It could be like there, I want to get them in touch with their hearts. Okay, great. Bring that in as well. I want them to have an experience of serenity. Great. Notice people who want to create serenity, they're fighting this like real battle with all their demons and it's not at all peaceful. Which is okay, but like we get a chance to like bring some of that in.

And if you're creating something for someone, having been in that experience yourself, you understand it better of how to create it, what gets in the way of it, like our fears, those things are going to get in the way of their experience of joy as well. And so we can relate to that and we can like work with that.

I also think we can bring the fears in that you're pointing to. As part of the joyful experience. So I just want to bring that in as a reminder as well. Okay. Craig does this leave you with some stuff to like work with some stuff to practice with?

Craig
It definitely does. It's a reminder of why I got in this whole thing in the first place. So thank you so much.

Leo
Yeah. I want to acknowledge you for coming onto this call. It can be vulnerable to, to come and share all this with people, but I really love the open book that you, you always are.

Craig
Absolutely.

Leo
I really would love to hear how this game progresses. So please keep sharing with us and when, and if it comes out, even if it's the imperfect unfinished version that you want people to play with, I'd love to share it with people as well.

Craig
I will get that out there as soon as I can.

Leo
Yeah. Ok. Cool

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