S3 Bonus - Eran Katz on Parenting, Self-Awareness & Playfulness

Welcome to the Zen Habits podcast, where we dive into how to work with uncertainty, resistance, and fear around our meaningful work. This is for anyone who wants to create an impact in the world and cares deeply enough to do the work. I'm your host, Leo Babauta, creator of the Zen Habits blog.

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Leo

Okay. Hello everybody. Today I have the honor of being joined by, and correct me if I say your name wrong, Eran Katz.

Eran

Yeah.

Leo

Did I say it close? Oh, perfect. I nailed it. We can stop recording now. But this is a special episode because we'll be doing a little bit of coaching and trying to help Eran move through some things that are blocking him and move to what he wants to create. And so I'll read a little bit of a bio so you know who we're talking to here.

Eran is a clinical psychologist, father of two, and a husband in no particular order. He works in a private practice in Tel Aviv, Israel. He dreams of helping parents move from being confused and stressed out into a more confident and leading role in their families. It's so beautiful. This is why I created the Parenting Map, M-A-P, and the Apparently Parent podcast. My goal in life is to help as many parents as possible move from chaos to harmony and build an enduring, meaningful relationship with their children. Awesome. Well, welcome, Eran.

Eran

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Leo

How are you doing today, by the way?

Eran

Pretty good. So we have this time difference, right? I'm guessing it's early morning for you. It's evening. I'm just after dinner, and, you know, I have young children—10 and 6 years old. So it's like one of the peaks of energy in the day—dinner, showers, and all that. So, like, it's right in between that. But I don't know, it was a pretty nice day today.

Leo

Oh, that's so cool. And what, what does a normal day for you look like? Just out of curiosity, like, are you doing your clinical work most of the day and then getting some time with the family at the end of it? Tell me a little bit more.

Eran

Yeah, so I have my main job—my day job is my private practice, which I go out to. I don't work from home. I have my office, and I go there three and a half days per week. One thing that I really like about this kind of work is that I can choose my own hours as long as I have clients coming in during those hours. I prefer to work in the mornings and noontime, so I have afternoons at home with my family.

I also have a couple of days off from the office because I'm still writing my PhD dissertation, which I'm working on. So it really depends on which day you're asking me. Like today—it's a Thursday—I don't have any clients today. I had a swimming lesson this morning, which was awesome, and then I was home working on my paper. Then the kids came home, so it was a much more relaxed day.

Leo

Really cool. Okay, thanks for sharing. And so, you are creating something outside of your day job. I heard that there's the PhD, but also this Parenting Map and the podcast. Can you tell me a bit about that?

Eran

Yeah. So I've been practicing as a psychologist for, I guess, about 15 years. I started as a child psychologist—that's what I studied, clinical child psychology. Over time, I realized I work better with their parents or just with adults, not necessarily on issues related to children.

After I became a father, my eldest, who’s a boy, moved from being just a baby to a toddler, which was more challenging communication-wise. I started to become more interested in parenting. I had to figure out how to be the kind of parent that I wanted to be. I had some knowledge already, then I read more books and started to talk about it with colleagues and clients.

The thing that started to bud within me was this wish to really hone in on this issue of parenting and how I could use my knowledge, experience, and skills to help more parents. Then COVID came. We were home, and they were really young. So we were stuck at home for a couple of months at the beginning, and it was not easy.

Leo

You said your kids are 10 and six?

Eran

Yeah, yeah.

Leo

Got it.

Eran

I have a boy and a daughter. She was like two years old, and he was in first grade when it started. It was very challenging because it was a challenging time and a challenging age. I started thinking about creating some kind of resource for parents around the ideas I was learning and trying to implement within myself as well.

It started as an idea for a blog. Then I thought about a podcast. I wanted to create more workshops and courses online, which I figured could help me reach more people and help my family financially while helping others. Elevating my business to a different kind of work really resonated with me, so that’s the big, global project.

Leo

Got it. How much of that have you created already? Have you been doing a blog or a podcast? What’s been done so far?

Eran

It started as a blog, and then—I don’t remember when—I started the podcast. It’s called the Apparently Parent Podcast. It was originally the Apparently Parent Blog. The podcast ran for 60-something episodes, and then I had to take a break because I was really busy with my PhD work.

One thing had to come in front of the other. So I made this decision—I thought I’d take a break for a year from podcasting to really focus on my PhD work. One year became two. For now, in my mind, the podcast is on a really long break, but I want to go back to it. I also want to create the first course that I’d like to offer.

You mentioned the Parenting Map—that’s the framework I conceived for how I want to help parents. That’s the name of it, and it’s the gist of how I want to work with people.

Leo

Okay, I’d love to hear a little bit more about that. You might know already that I have six kids.

Eran

Oh, I didn’t know.

Leo

It’s a mixed family. We have two each from previous relationships, and then we came together and had two more. So it’s three boys and three girls, a blended family. But our youngest one just turned 18, so we have all adults. They’re not actually kids anymore.

For a long time, I’ve been joking that as a parent, my main job is to get them to adulthood—18, alive. And if they do that, then I succeeded. I have a 100% success rate—all of them alive at 18.

That’s a joke because, obviously, as you know, there’s a lot more to it. It’s not just making them survive. So what would you like parents to know that goes beyond just survival? Like, is there anything in the Parenting Map that you think is important to share? And obviously, you’ve talked for hours on a podcast, so we don’t have that long. Just give me the gist of what you think should be communicated to parents.

Eran

That’s a really good question. I think, if you ask any psychologist or social worker like me who works with children and their parents, they’ll tell you about parents who come into the office saying, “Fix the little guy,” or “Tell me what to do and what to say. Give me the tools. Give me the formulas.”

We don’t have those. It doesn’t work like that. I can’t fix the child for you because I see them for one hour a week—you’re there all the time.

It boils down to this: It’s your job to work on yourself. The Parenting Map is an acronym, but one of the main parts of the work is parents understanding themselves—how their minds work, what makes them tick, and what makes them untick, getting dysregulated. It’s about developing the skills to be more regulated on a day-to-day basis so they can be there for their children when the kids are dysregulated.

I think that’s the main thing. You’ve probably had this experience many times. Your kid is going through something, and you need to be there for them. You have to find the power within yourself to show up in the way they need. You have six kids, so you know how different everyone can be. It’s a delicate job of knowing yourself, knowing your children, and attuning to them.

That’s why I believe working with parents is the way to go—it’s not about working with the children themselves.

Leo

I absolutely love that you’re sharing this. And obviously, it’s a deep topic that you could go into for a long time. We’ll share links to whatever resources you have created or recommend.

I just wanted to say, I love that you’re focusing on this. As a father, I know the importance of it. When my kids are dysregulated, when they’ve got their stuff coming up, it often triggers my own stuff. My parenting moments that I’m least proud of are when I wasn’t able to deal with my own emotions in response to theirs.

I’ve gotten a lot better at that. This is a lot of the work I’ve done on myself. I’m not perfect, but I’ve definitely improved. The more I can do that for myself, as you said, the more I can be there for them in the way they need. And as you know, we’re modeling something for them—how to regulate ourselves.

And that’s something that’s not taught. In fact, the opposite is taught a lot, at least in the society I’m in. I think what you’re doing is so needed, and I just want to say thank you for that.

Eran

Thanks.

Leo

Okay, so we want to get into the difficulty you’re having around this. But because I think it’s such an important topic, I have to ask: If someone wanted to get started on this, are there resources you’ve created or that you’d recommend to others?

Eran

So, there’s my podcast. There are a couple of episodes where I talk about the role of the parent and what the Parenting Map is, at least in the beginning. People can always reach out to me. There are lots of books out there about parenting that I wish I’d written myself.

Leo

Any favorites you recommend to parents?

Eran

Anything written by Dan Siegel is a favorite of mine. He’s written a lot about the mind at large, but he has three or four parenting books he wrote with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson, like No-Drama Discipline and The Whole-Brain Child.

If I were to create a gift kit for new parents, I’d include those two books: The Whole-Brain Child and No-Drama Discipline. Those are fundamental.

Leo

Okay, I can already hear every parent listening to this clicking on Amazon and ordering those right now. I will be as well, so thank you for that. We’ll also link to Apparently Parent—your blog and podcast.

I think this is so important. I can see why you want to create not only what you’ve already created, but this course you have in mind. Tell me about how that’s going—creating the course so far.

Eran

It’s not really going. It’s going, okay. It goes a lot in my mind. As I said, I had an idea during COVID. I started trying to understand the online space of content and course creation, which I was clueless about. I went into this phase of trying to learn everything I could about starting an online business, creating courses, and getting paid traffic, while also feeling like I didn’t know anything about parenting all of a sudden. I thought I needed to read all the books.

So, I went into this constant loop of buying courses about creating courses and reading books about different parenting techniques. I think I really got better at reading parenting books.

Fast forward to today. Something happened in recent months—maybe because of the circumstances we’re in. You mentioned I live in Israel, and we’ve been in a war state for six months. Luckily, I live in the center of Israel, so it’s quieter where I am. But at the beginning, we had to disconnect from everything just to mentally survive.

I went into this place where I told myself, “This is something I really need to focus on.” I started taking the ideas I had scattered everywhere in my notes about the Parenting Map and consolidating them into one file. I’m kind of a visual thinker, so I laid it out visually on a canvas. Things started to make more sense to me, and that made me feel like, “Okay, now all these ideas that were all over the place are starting to take shape and form.”

I feel like I can start to offer them outside—to tell more people about them and create something they can use. So that’s kind of where I am.

Leo

That’s really good work. I mean, it sounds like, first of all, being in a war area—I’ve never been myself—but I can only imagine, you know, even if you’re maybe physically safe, just hearing noises. I have a friend who I think lives somewhere near you, and he was talking about how, daily, you can see rockets, and it’s just, you know, scary.

Eran

Yeah.

Leo

And so, even if you know you’re safe, your body responds in a certain way. I imagine that highlights even more how important emotional regulation is. When you’re in a state like that, there are going to be a lot of parents and kids going through a lot.

It sounds like that was really disruptive for you, but something in that made you decide to focus more and really get into, “Let me try and figure this out and put it together” mode. Is that true?

Eran

Yeah.

Leo

Is that what I’m hearing?

Eran

Yeah. And you know, I had more time on my hands because the children were out of school for some time, and we couldn’t go out to see clients. It’s kind of paradoxical to think that during that time, I got clearer on my goals somehow. It’s like the jigsaw pieces suddenly came together for me.

And maybe there was some kind of motivation—thinking, “I’ve been sitting on this idea for so long. If I’m able to create this, it will be good for the people who go through it, like my audience, my clients, or whatever I should call it. And also for my family.”

Maybe it was the suddenness of it all. Everything changed suddenly on a Saturday morning—October 7th. And it’s not the first time something like that has happened where we live, but not on that scale. I think the surprise of it, how everything changed from white to black all of a sudden, made me feel—without consciously thinking about it—that I have to do something about it. You just can’t wait for things to be fine, you know?

Leo

Yeah.

Eran

And so, maybe that’s what happened.

Leo

I know. Yeah, I can understand that. Sometimes people are faced with their mortality or the briefness of life, and it can be incredibly disruptive, but it can also be incredibly motivating or focusing. It’s like, “Oh, I don’t know how much time I have here, and I need to get this out. This can’t wait. What am I waiting for?”

The other thing I wanted to highlight that you mentioned earlier was how you got into “learn everything about online business” mode and also, “Maybe I don’t know anything about parenting, so let me read every book.” You joked about getting really good at reading parenting books, but it’s such a common thing.

I invite anyone listening or watching this podcast to check in with yourself. Are you feeling some shakiness about online businesses, platforms, or technology? Or about your ability, credibility, authority, or expertise to bring something forward?

Those fears, that uncertainty, are normal. But the way we often respond is to buy a bunch of books, take a bunch of courses, and look for the answers outside ourselves. That can become an eternal mode—always learning more because you’ll never learn enough from books and courses to feel confident.

That shakiness will never go away, no matter how much you consume. I remember talking with someone who wanted help with writing a book. I asked how it was going, and he said, “Oh, I’ve been taking courses and reading books—I’ve taken 20 courses on how to be a writer.” And I asked, “How many more do you think you’ll need before you feel confident?”

The answer is, never. You’ll never be able to take enough courses to feel confident in putting your writing out there.

I love that you shared that. It’s a good reminder to check in with yourself. Am I procrastinating on creating something by consuming more information? The answer is never more information. That’s not to say courses or books are bad—they’re amazing resources—but it’s just good to know.

Eran

Oh, yeah. My logic says that’s true, but there’s this voice saying, “Maybe you need to learn that marketing method” or “Maybe you need to check out this child development course.” It’s like it’s never enough. I realize it’s never going to be enough, and I just have to start doing what I want to do.

I also have to remember that I’ve already learned quite enough. But yeah, it’s like a battle between the logical part of me and the emotional part of me, I guess.

Leo

Absolutely. I totally get that. Okay, let’s talk about the struggle you’re facing now. Tell me about that struggle and how it’s going for you.

Eran

So, after I felt like things were falling into place in my mind, I laid it out on this canvas. I even started trying to outline what this course would look like. I started talking about it a little online—on Twitter.

There are people out there who know me as a psychologist. Some of them have consulted with me or asked me questions. I share things that happen with my children as a parent, and I got these reactions—like their ears perked up.

People said, “We’d like to know more about what you’re creating. We’d maybe even like to be part of it.” So, I thought, “Okay, maybe people would like to be part of it.” I said, “Let me know—DM me if you’d like to know more if I create this.”

I know that one way of validating a course idea is to gather a group of people, talk with them, and maybe offer a beta version at a reduced price.

In my mind, this is where I am right now. And it scares the shit out of me to actually go out and tell those people, “Okay, this is what I want to do, and I’d like you to pay me this much for it. Let’s work together.” That would make it real and tangible, and that’s scary.

Leo

Absolutely.

So, you did the canvas visualization, started outlining, and talked about it in public. You got some responses—maybe even some DMs. It sounds like where you’re stuck is committing to creating it in collaboration with them, using them as beta testers. You’re stuck on saying, “I am creating this, and here’s how much it will cost.” That’s where fear is stopping you, right?

Eran

Yeah.

Leo

Is that right?

Eran

Yeah.

Leo

Okay. So, let’s see. In terms of actually creating it, are you hoping to create it on your own, in private, without sharing it with people as you’re creating it? Or do you really want to do this beta tester mode but are just stuck there?

Eran

I think I would like to do the beta thing. I guess I have good ideas, but I want to run them by other people and see if they resonate with the way I talk about it or the exercises I can provide. I want to see if it has some potency and if it works for them.

I’ve done some of this without calling it the Parenting Map with my clients in private practice. I see that for some of them, things work. So, I’d like to go through that kind of group creation. I think that would be nice.

Leo

You’re already validating it, it sounds like, with your clients.

Eran

Not per se—or at least, that’s maybe my inner voice coming up, right? Because I never called it, “This is my method of Parenting Map—let’s do this and this.”

With my clients, it’s more like, “Okay, let me explain why your child acted that way in that moment. Maybe you can try this instead.” And in my mind, I’m thinking about the framework, but I never package it the way I would like to.

Leo

I get that. But you are validating the ideas, the methods, and the principles through your work with them. It’s just not as...

Eran

Kind of, a little bit. Yeah.

Leo

Okay. So, it sounds like actually working with people on these ideas isn’t the part that scares you. You’re doing it with your clients. It’s more about saying, “Here’s this thing I’ve created with a name on it and my name below it.”

Does that feel true?

Eran

It’s almost true. I think maybe it’s because I never called it the Parenting Map. I never said, “Let me teach you my framework. It starts here and goes there.”

Also, working one-on-one with someone for an hour a week in private practice is different. You have more time to get to know them, understand the nuances of their family, and tweak as you go along. That’s something I can’t do on the scale of an online workshop or course.

Maybe that’s why it feels different validation-wise. And maybe that’s also why the thing that scares me the most is, “I’m going to get a bunch of people excited, they’ll pay me money to go into this experience, and it’s going to fall flat. It won’t help them.”

That’s what scares me—I’m going to disappoint them. In private practice, we have more time to mull things over. It’s different, so it doesn’t feel the same to me yet.

Leo

It sounds like when you have more time with someone and you’re working one-on-one, you’re able to do things that prevent disappointment.

Eran

Yeah, more often than not.

Leo

If you’re not able to do that...

Eran

More often than not, yeah.

Leo

Yeah, most likely, you have ways to work with them and ensure they’re not feeling disappointed. But with people you’re working with who might be faceless or in a large group, there’s no way for you to work that same kind of magic.

Okay, so the main fear is, “It’s going to fall flat. It’s not going to work. They’re not going to be happy. I’ll be a disappointment.”

Eran

Exactly. Yeah.

Leo

Okay. I get that fear. Let’s see where I want to go with this... Just give me a second here.

Okay, I have a couple of lines of inquiry. Let’s take a look at that. Is that okay?

Eran

Yeah.

Leo

So the fear is, “It’s going to fall flat, and I’ll be a disappointment.” What actions—or non-actions—flow from that fear? If you believe, “I’m just going to fall flat and I’m a disappointment,” what actions would you take—or not take?

Eran

I would not take the action of creating content, telling people about it, or trying to get customers. I’d just keep doing other things, maybe things unrelated to this passion and dream of mine—like watching another Netflix episode or working on one of my papers. Those are important, but it’s a different thing.

Leo

Okay, got it. That seems pretty clear. What results will you get from that set of actions—or non-actions?

Eran

I may finish a Netflix series.

Leo

You’d feel accomplished, right? Finished it!

Eran

Let’s move on to the next one. No, yeah—but the result I want is to see my business dream come to life. I want to realize the aspirations I have for my family. That’s a crucial part of why I want to do this. I think it would let me do something I really believe in—something that matters in the outside world—and also make a really good difference for my family. And, you know, my ability to make sure my kids get to 18.

Leo

Yeah. So, seeing that, the fear leads to certain actions—or inactions—and then a set of results. Right? You finish the Netflix series, but you’re not doing these things that are really important and meaningful to you. This dream never gets realized within this set of actions and non-actions.

How does that make you feel afterward—after that’s played out as a sequence of events?

Eran

I think I feel awesome—when I do the thing, right?

Leo

Oh, I’m sorry. In this cycle, we’re talking about you not doing anything.

Eran

Ah, okay. Got it.

Leo

Yeah, so this doesn’t happen.

Eran

Ah, I see. Yeah, the opposite of awesome. I feel...

Leo

Which is what?

Eran

I just had this image of a deflated balloon in my mind. It feels like I’m deflated. There’s this voice of harsh judgment saying, “Look at you—you’re not doing anything worthwhile. You wanted to do this, you wanted to do that. It’s too late now. You’ve failed yourself.” It’s a really harsh voice, and it makes me feel like crap.

Leo

Yeah, got it. And does that voice, and the way you’re feeling—feeling like crap—reinforce any fear or belief about yourself?

Eran

I think it reinforces the belief that I don’t follow through. There’s this belief that says, “You have big ideas, dreams, and plans, but you just can’t follow through.” And I know, somewhere, that’s not entirely true, but it would give more weight to that belief.

Leo

But it can feel true at times, especially in moments like this.

What I’m noticing is, it might actually reinforce the original belief or fear. We can call it either one: “I am a disappointment.” Do you see what I mean? Where we started this?

Actually, I’ll paint it out since you’re a visual learner—and I imagine there are a lot of others like that too. Imagine there’s this circle. At the top of the circle, we have the belief or fear: “This course is going to fall flat, and I’m going to be a disappointment.” From that belief or fear, actions flow—or don’t flow.

So, moving down this side of the circle, you might watch Netflix or do anything other than work on this really meaningful thing. Then, on this side of the circle, the results would be: “I’ll finish the Netflix series, but I won’t do the thing I care about—the thing that really matters for my family.”

And then, after that, there’s a feeling: this harsh voice that says, “You never finish anything,” among other things. It reinforces an idea—one belief being, “I never get things done,” and the other being the original fear: “I’m a disappointment.”

That was a fear, but it’s also your belief. “I fear I’m a disappointment, and if I put this out there, it will actually get proven.”

Eran

Yeah.

Leo

Yeah. What are you hearing as I lay all of that out?

Eran

I’m hearing the existence of this core belief: “I might not be good enough, and I’ll be a disappointment—to myself and maybe to others who rely on me or believe in me.”

It’s just an icky feeling. I don’t have better words to describe it. It feels like crap to be the guy who disappoints and doesn’t follow through for other people—people who need me, who rely on me.

Leo

I hear you. And for anyone listening or watching, I want to highlight that this cycle is not a bad thing about Eran. This is something we all experience.

We all have some belief or fear, passed on to us as a “gift” by someone when we were younger. It could’ve been a teacher or a parent. Not to pick on parents—parents are doing their best with good intentions, but sometimes we hand our kids these beliefs.

So, there’s this belief: “I’m a disappointment.” From that, logical actions flow. If I believe I’m a disappointment, why would I work on the course? It’s terrifying. So logically, I’ll watch Netflix or do something else. And then, naturally, certain results flow from that.

This cycle creates reactions—feelings or voices—that perpetuate it. It’s an invisible system for most of us. It doesn’t matter if you’re a psychologist, coach, or expert. You can’t see your own version of it—it’s like the water we swim in.

Bringing awareness to it when it’s happening is key. From now on, if you notice yourself watching Netflix instead of working on the course, you might realize, “Oh, this is from my fear.” You don’t need to stop watching Netflix, but you’ll be aware of what’s happening and the results it will lead to.

Eran

It’s funny because I always tell my clients that awareness is the key. This is where we have to start.

Leo

Exactly. You’re doing good work—bringing that kind of awareness to others. It’s hard to see what we can’t see, even if we can see it for others.

I can see it for others, but not my own stuff—that’s why I have a coach. I really appreciate you being willing to model this.

So, within this system, nothing else is possible. One thing I encourage you to think about is: What’s an experience you’d like to have—outside of this system—as you create this course with beta testers? Something not contained within the system.

Eran

I don’t know. My mind goes to, “I want to help these parents who think I can help them.” I want to succeed in helping them, so I have to create the Parenting Map, create the content, and reach out to people.

I know it might work for some, and not as well for others, because people and families are different. But it’s tied to the thing itself.

Leo

So, looking at that—you want to work with these people, knowing it might work for some and not for others. But how would you like to experience that? What would be amazing as you create and share with them?

Eran

The moment when, after one or two weeks, someone says, “I have to tell you about this time this week where I did that—and it worked. Something changed for me and my child.” That’s the moment I’d love to see.

Leo

So there’s this moment of meaningful change.

Eran

Yeah.

Leo

I totally get that. Hmm... I’m still looking for your internal experience. It might be helpful. I’m going to try a different approach. Would that be okay?

Okay, let’s forget about this course creation for a minute. We’ll come back to it. What’s an experience of life where you feel really alive? It could be something that happened five years ago. It could be something you do on weekends. It doesn’t matter.

Eran

I think about playing—like goofing around with my kids. That’s the first thing that came up for me. When we’re just really goofing around, playing this unstructured game, and we’re in it together—it’s really silly, and everybody’s laughing.

That’s one thing. I’m also thinking about a specific place we visited as a family this summer. It’s in Italy, really beautiful. I’m thinking about these moments where I’m just sitting there with this amazing view and the sun is setting. And I don’t know why—because I’m not doing anything—but it feels amazing.

You really feel alive because you’re there. It’s so quiet and beautiful, and you feel connected to the place. It fills you up with something. That’s the other thing that intuitively came up for me.

Leo

So beautiful. Thanks for sharing that with us.

Speaking to the audience now—people listening or watching—what I was inviting Eran to do was to connect to some inner experiences that are really him in his essence.

Playing with his kids, I really get the sense of goofing around and unstructured play. There’s a sense of childlike play, and I get that when you’re at your most natural essence. That’s actually a big part of who you are—play. This is unstructured play, right?

As adults, we often structure our lives out of play, but you still let yourself connect to that with your kids, and that’s a beautiful thing. One wonderful thing about being a parent is sometimes kids give us permission to play when we wouldn’t have it otherwise.

Then there’s the other experience you shared—this place of beauty, family, nature, and maybe a sense of peace. What I was really getting was a sense of connection—a connection with everything around you, an interconnection.

These are two big parts of who you are at your essence—probably who you were when you were five years old. And we shut down that essence because we feel like we have to, out of fear, but that’s who you are.

I bet the people who love you most connect with your essence of play, peace, and connection—not necessarily when you’re in fear or reactivity, but when you’re just being who you are at your deepest essence.

Do any of those feel like they’d be amazing to bring to the creation of this course, with the people who are receiving it?

Eran

Yeah, I’m not sure how to do that, but I’ve been told many times that I induce some kind of peacefulness. I’m usually a mellow, almost passive kind of guy, so people feel comfortable around me. That’s a very important part of my job—people need to feel like they can trust me.

I want to help parents who are really struggling with their day-to-day lives and feeling shitty about themselves. Peacefulness is something they’re really seeking. If I can lend something of myself to that, that would be great.

I also think—and this might be the harder part for me—that I resonate with the playfulness of it all. I want to help people connect to their own playfulness, to test things out, and not take themselves too seriously.

I do believe parenting is the most important job in the world, but if you take yourself too seriously, you headbutt into rigidness, and that’s unhelpful.

I’m thinking about my journey as someone trying to create something. How can I implement more playfulness into this work?

Leo

That’s a great question. Any ideas come up for you as you think about that? It sounds like you’d like to have more playfulness in the creation?

Eran

I don’t know. I think it’s about finding a way to feel... because what is playfulness if not throwing things around and not really caring about the outcome—in a safe way?

You allow yourself to goof around, look silly, and act out voices or characters, etc. If I could get into more of a playful mode when I’m creating this thing, when I’m talking with prospective clients, when I’m teaching or offering coaching to a parent, maybe I wouldn’t be so scared that I have to get it just right—or else all hell will break loose.

That might be the antidote to that fear, in a way.

Leo

That’s amazing.

Okay, so we’re running low on time. Do you have a hard stop at the end of this?

Eran

I’m okay.

Leo

Okay, you have a few extra minutes.

I’d like to say a few things to bring us to a close here. What you were just sharing is such a beautiful possibility for you. This is who you are at your essence: play, peace, and connection. Those would be amazing things to bring to the parents you work with—but also to yourself as you create.

The one you’re really connecting with right now is play, and I think that’s amazing.

What I want to encourage you to do is notice when you’re in the old pattern, the old context. It’s the belief: “It’s going to fall flat. I’m going to be a disappointment.” From that, all the actions flow, the results, the self-talk, and the reinforcement of the belief that you never finish anything or get anything done—and basically that you’re a disappointment.

Just notice all of that with a degree of reverence. It’s like, “Whoa, look at what I’ve created to protect myself—and it doesn’t work.” It actually ends up feeling like more of a disappointment because you’re trying to avoid being one, but you feel worse afterward.

That doesn’t mean we don’t still try. So just notice it.

When you notice, “I’m not actually working on the thing,” realize, “Oh, there must be that fear there.” Self-talk is coming soon.

The noticing is the first thing, and bring a sense of love to yourself as you go through that. It’s really hard to break out of old patterns, especially if you’ve been using them for many years.

The antidote, as you said, would be to say, “I want play when I create this.”

You don’t need to get it right or perfect. Maybe you can bring a sense of goofy playfulness to the parents you work with. Be permission for them to play as adults—what a gift that would be! Talk about play, and encourage them to bring play to their own emotions and to their interactions with their kids.

Sometimes I’ll write a word like “Play” on a post-it note, put it on my computer, my bathroom mirror, or as my phone lock screen—whatever it takes to remind me.

When you practice play, you might feel, “Oh, I need to get it right,” which is falling back into the old pattern. But play is bigger than the fear of disappointment. Play doesn’t care about being a disappointment. It contains way more possibility.

You might think, “Maybe someone won’t get anything out of this,” and you can even bring play to that! There’s no limit to play.

Bring play to all of it—including the part you’re really worried about.

Eran

That’s landing smoothly and right on the spot.

I really like the idea of thinking about the essence of play and peacefulness. It resonates with me. The playfulness isn’t exactly my comfort zone, but I feel like it’s part of my essence. Acting on it and doing it isn’t in my comfort zone, but it’s not so far away.

I think that’s the bridge I need to walk on. I like how fear can be here, playfulness can be here, and I can move through, around, or with the fear—using playfulness. That’s something I can work with, which is awesome.

Leo

Amazing. I hope you’ll put this into practice and share updates with me.

Thank you, Eran, for being vulnerable and sharing the struggles you’re having. I also want to acknowledge you for being open to play.

What a beautiful possibility for you as a creator and for parents to see an adult being goofy, playing, and not being overly focused on results. It’s an incredible gift for parents and their kids.

The more you create, the more you’ll serve parents and kids. This is important work, and I’m so glad you’re willing to step out of your comfort zone and bring more play into your life and the world.

Eran

Thank you for creating this podcast and inviting people to work on something during the season—not just listen.

For me, my default would’ve been to not do this. So this is kind of play for me right now. I’m really glad I did it, and I thank you for creating this opportunity.

Leo

That’s so good. I’m glad you acknowledge that this was you stepping outside your comfort zone.

To anyone listening or watching, email me at [email protected], as Eran did. I can’t interview or coach everyone, but I read every email. I’d love to do more of these.

Eran, I believe you’re doing meaningful work, and I’m so glad we had this conversation.

Eran

Thank you.

Leo

Okay, bye, everybody.

***

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* This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and readability.