S2 Bonus - Maria Gehrke on Mindfulness Through Art and Parenting

00:00 • Introduction to Zen Habits podcast

00:38 • Meet Maria: the multifaceted artist

02:41 • Maria's artistic journey

04:23 • The impact of motherhood on creativity

15:15 • Exploring collaborative art projects

22:28 • The joy of creating safe spaces through art

23:02 • Art as a personal and collaborative experience

25:28 • Transition to mindfulness journey and podcast

25:48 • The transformative power of art

26:45 • Beginning the mindfulness journey

27:04 • Mindful parenting and its impact

29:31 • Creating the 'Becoming Mindful' podcast

34:29 • Overcoming fears and self-doubt

41:35 • Mindful and gentle parenting techniques

49:10 • Conclusion and final thoughts

Leo

Welcome to the Zen Habits podcast, where we dive into how to work with uncertainty, resistance, and fear around our meaningful work. This is for anyone who wants to create an impact in the world and cares deeply enough to do the work. I'm your host, Leo Babauta, creator of the Zen Habits blog.

Okay. Hello, everybody. And I'd like to welcome Maria onto the podcast. Maria, can you say your last name? Cause I'm going to say it wrong.

Maria

Well, there's two ways of saying it. The American way is Gurki. The German way is Gehrke.

Leo

Gehrke. Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that. But I'd like to just introduce you.

You are a multifaceted watercolor artist and IT professional. You bridged the gap between technology and art with a focus on nature and mindfulness. You moved from Germany to Wisconsin in 2007 and you've found inspiration in nature and your personal mindfulness journey leading to the creation of your unique art series like "Windows to Nature" and "Mini Portals to Tranquility."

These have culminated in your 2023 project "Your Portal to Your Refuge," a collaborative art experience designed to manifest tranquil spaces for your clients. So, we'll link to all of this. We'll get into this in the conversation. But in addition to all of that, you also co-founded a podcast in 2021, "The Becoming Mindful Podcast."

And again, we'll share links to that as well. Aiming to explore and share your mindfulness journey with a broader audience and encourage others on this path. You live a busy life with a small child, a husband, two dogs, and your work embodies your commitment to mindfulness, creativity, and compassion.

Did I get all of that right?

Maria

Yes.

Leo

Okay. Awesome. And I also know you through Fearless Living Academy. You've been a member there for a little while as well and putting some beautiful things into that space and working with others. And so, that's actually how I got to know you and I'm really honored to have you here on the podcast. So, welcome.

Maria

Thank you. I'm very honored to be here.

Leo

Let's see. So, you know, you could see in that bio that I just shared about Maria there's a lot to explore here. And so, I think I'd like to start with art. Does that sound good?

Maria

Yeah. Sounds great.

Leo

As you know, this season is about creativity and creating in all kinds of ways, but art is about, is a very... it's one of the ways that people's minds go to when we talk about creativity. And so, it would be really cool to explore that. Before we started recording, you said that you've been doing art for most of your life. Is that true?

Maria

Yeah, absolutely.

Leo

Yeah. Tell me more about that. Was it like, were you just always into it? Like, what's your journey been like as an artist?

Maria

I've definitely, as a child, like early on, as far as I can remember, always loved creating, drawing, crafting, crochet, all kinds of stuff that's creative. And I did some more visual art in high school. And then, yeah, it kind of faded a little bit.

I think it was mostly the pressure of doing something sensible with your life. I think that's one of the things that got me a little bit away from my art path. Kind of the family or the environment not seeing as much of the value in it, which is sad, but, you know, if you're a teenager or young adult in college, that's definitely a big influence on you, right? You haven't really found your own voice in your own ways yet.

And yeah, then in 2017, I had my daughter. And that was quite a big shift for me just overall. I mean, my life changed, my inner world changed. Everything was very different, and this is also, I think this is also where my mindfulness journey started.

Leo

Really?

Maria

Because I was looking into gentle parenting and mindful parenting. And in 2019, I really started back into creating or painting and drawing regularly.

Leo

What got you back into it?

Maria

I don't really know. It just kind of started. I think I went to a figure drawing session and then it just kind of like this joy that I remembered that I had. And I just wanted to get back into it. And then it developed from there. Yeah.

Leo

Okay. There's a number of things that I want to touch on that you've touched on already. The first one is you were kind of called to art, you know, as a young kid. Was there someone who encouraged you? Like someone said, "Oh, that's amazing." Or like, just really encouraged your creativity and allowed you to feel like you had permission to create in that way?

Maria

Yeah. I think definitely my art teacher at the time and my family too. My mother also paints. She doesn't call herself an artist, but I think she is. But I have a very different definition of who is an artist. Maybe we can touch on that too, but yeah, actually all of my family.

So, for me personally, there's always this discussion about what is art and who can call themselves an artist. You know, do you have to go to art school or not? And you have to be good at it. And personally, I think everyone is an artist. If you make art, if you make anything that is art, be it a painting or music, singing, or crafting, I think you're an artist if you do anything creative. That's kind of an art. You're an artist. That's how I feel.

Leo

I love that. Not needing a lot of gatekeeping, huh?

Maria

No. And I think that's the same with like, what's good art. For me, that's so personal. Quantifying it, yes, of course you can say the technical skills, right? You can value someone for their technical skills and give them appreciation for it because it's a lot of hard work to get really good at something like that.

But I think the art component, it's like if you feel something, if it connects to you, if it somehow talks to something inside of you, or just generally if it's meant to be art. If someone makes something and they think it's art, then it's art.

Leo

I love that. It's so inclusive, just like, "Yes, you're an artist too. If you're making anything and you think it's art, you're an artist."

So there was this early kind of encouragement or a space where you could be creative and create art. What you mentioned later in your late teens or early adulthood, you might have received messages, not just you, I would assume, that a lot of people who want to do something creative receive these messages like "That's not practical" or "It's not going to make a living." Tell me what that was like.

Maria

Interestingly, the message that artists receive is, you know, the breathless... what is it called in German? There is a phrase which means like "breathless art," which means you can't make a living with it, right?

And, you know, I think just the family and the environment, teachers, counselors, peers. I think anyone, especially in Germany, is very focused on doing something that's solid, that's sensible, right? That's logical, that you can make a stable living.

Leo

Right.

Maria

And interestingly, that message pretty much came from the same people that encouraged me when I was a child in art. So it's kind of this shift from "It's okay for children. It's wonderful. It's like, oh, you're so creative and that's so awesome." And then once you become an adult and supposed to go into the world and make your own way, then it's like, "Oh, you know, this is probably not... you can do that as a hobby maybe."

So I actually went into a business major, which is very, yeah. And that morphed a little bit into a business and engineering combination major. So there's like a special major in Germany that's a combination between engineering and business to be kind of like a liaison between the two.

Leo

Right.

Maria

And because of my exchange program and the school here in Milwaukee not having that course or that major, it morphed into more of an IT background. And that's how I also ended up in IT. So completely like more technical, more logical. Now, I would say though, there are creative elements to that profession as well because you have to do creative problem-solving and things like that.

But yeah, so focus on that. Right. And so I went totally left brain, everything away from, and I think that like, I don't know why that also took me away from the art. I think it might also have been just, you know, the young adult changes in what people do, you know, the parties and stuff like that instead of doing art as a hobby.

Leo

Was there ever like a feeling, like a disappointment that you couldn't pursue art, that it's not sensible and practical?

Maria

Yes, absolutely. And I think it wasn't really clear for me earlier. I kind of suppressed it. I wasn't really thinking about it as much, but it definitely became clear to me after I had my child. And I think it's just the whole perspective shift, you know, once you have your own child that the child will grow up and have their own life and opportunities. I think that's where it really came back up where I'm like, okay, if I would have done it again, maybe I would have chosen art instead.

Now I'm not unhappy with where I am with my IT job. I do like my job and I appreciate it. I mean, there are lots of interesting and exciting things to do. And, you know, it kind of challenges me. Technical stuff was always interesting for me too.

Leo

Yeah. Okay. Well, yeah, thanks for sharing some of that. The other piece that I wanted to touch on was that you've mentioned this a couple of times now. When you had your daughter, something shifted for you, a perspective shift, and you talked a little bit about it, but you also earlier said like your inner world changed.

Maria

Oh yeah.

Leo

And so I'd like to hear more about that. What happened there?

Maria

I think the biggest thing was like where my priorities are, what's important to me in life. You know, relationships versus what it was before. I think it went a little bit more intangible, you know, what do I really want out of life? And it became less and more.

It was less desire for whatever, the house, the whatever. That kind of died off and it's more of this, you know, like a content life with people that I love and share the, you know, share the time with people that I love and with things that I love to do and connect to the world, the universe, the nature.

I'm hesitant to say happy because I think a lot of the times happy has this connotation of bliss, which that's not something you can achieve every moment of your life. It's just impossible. So I would probably seek a content life.

Leo

Hmm. Can you make a connection for me? So, I get you had your daughter, something that caused something to shift. And then the shift is what you talked about, but like...

Maria

How did that happen? Yeah, that's a good question. Maybe it was hormonal. I don't know. It's a joke. But I think, you know, once you bring a life into the world, that's just a big thing. I feel like the responsibility maybe also for the child. And you know, a good life for her and wanting to experience life.

And maybe, you know, it's also like an own mortality thing where you're like, okay, getting older. You know, I think how people have like midlife crises, but you know, when you have a child, I think that's kind of like that too, where you just everything, you're reevaluating what is really important in your life at the end of the day.

Leo

Okay. Thank you for sharing that. Okay. So continuing the journey with art and I definitely want to talk about the podcast and, you know, other things that you'd like to explore, but continuing with the art, you have gotten into these different collaborative and what was it? Multi-modality type art projects. And I'd love to just hear more about that, like the growth in your art in that direction.

Maria

Sure. So I think it started with, you know, when I started the podcast and looking into mindfulness, it felt natural that it would seep into my art. Right. Mindfulness. And especially the connection with nature because for me, being outside or being in nature is extremely, it's like an easy trick to be mindful in some way.

So it started out with a project that I called "Windows to Nature," where I wanted to create a more immersive feeling. So instead of just painting a landscape, I also painted a window frame around it. So you kind of get this feeling of you're looking through your window and there is this, the nature, right? You can open it, you're like right there. It's right next to you.

So that was step one. And then I was also thinking about commissions, commission work and how that's a collaborative approach. Cause I was trying to figure out, you know, what people long for. I think it started out trying to figure out what other landscapes I should paint for my windows. And what, you know, what is something that people would love to see out of their window?

And so I had some different ideas from people on social media that follow me and that I interact with. And that brought me the idea that, well, why can't we create this together, but not just like a commission where you tell me, okay, I want this. But it's like we both find what this is together.

And then I'm like, okay, but what would it make it really cool is if we had a session. So that's how I came up with this visualization session. That's part of the art experience. I call this "Venture Through Your Portal" session. So essentially it's a meditation. It's a visualization meditation to go to a safe place in your head. Like imagining going there and it's a known meditation. They utilize that in therapy, you know, to create a safe space where, you know, people dealing with trauma, so they have a space where they can go to and they feel safe and nothing can get to them.

But also I wanted it to be something where you can just be relaxed and kind of get away for just a moment. Just breathe, like, ah, this is great.

And my last client that I just had a visualization session with on Monday, she actually told me that she did something like that as a course when she was pregnant, like for pregnancy meditation type thing.

Leo

That's cool.

Maria

Yeah. No, it wasn't together with someone, it was interactive. It was, you know, like an exercise or like a recording. So the session that I had is we both do it together. So I lead them to this place and once you're there, you can explore it, but I also ask questions to really get you to notice everything. How it feels, like all the feelings on your skin or whatever you imagine right at that place, you know, warm, cold.

And then just also how your body feels. If you imagine yourself there. And, you know, if you touch things around you, you can smell if you smell something. So go like all the senses involving all the senses. And then also going through the details of the exact scenery because, you know, I need that then to take that and make my own rendition of their space. So then I make a painting.

Leo

Based on how they have described, how they responded to those questions.

Maria

Yes, what they have described in their place. And I did, you know, there's two levels of this. The one I'm doing right now is a smaller version where I just paint the painting. And then there's a bigger version where I make it really like a bigger painting. And in the process, because it takes a little bit longer, I make like little sketches, just like postcards. So I send like little postcards to the customer.

So it's kind of more of a connection, but what I really want to do there is create this connection for them to the safe space so that they can go there very easily and the painting in the end. Obviously it's a painting so it's nice to have in your home, right? It's a beautiful decoration but that's more of like a trigger, a hook for your memory to go back to that experience that you had in the session.

Leo

Beautiful.

Maria

So that's what I'm doing lately.

Leo

Okay. I have a bunch of questions. So how has that been in terms of how it's been received by people? Like not just the visualization meditation but actually like getting the art from you. Has that had the impact that you were hoping to have? Has anything surprised you about that?

Maria

Yeah, I think I've so far had really good feedback on both of it. And it seemed like it really helped them do what I hoped it to do. So, you know, from the feedback I've heard that, you know, it was easy to... I was able to go back there. And also in the session, like just this feeling that they expressed, you know, that they felt really calm and amazing and that they could take that back into their life afterward.

So yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And good feedback. And it's funny because when I do the session, before the session, I'm a little bit nervous, you know, meeting the person because we do a little bit of an introduction before. And for me, it's also great because I can absorb that. They're reflecting all these feelings back to me. And I also feel like, ah, this is so great. And I just feel great.

Leo

What's it like going into that meditation with them where you're guiding them but also experiencing this safe space for them with them? What's that like for you?

Maria

Yeah. It's amazing. Like it's, I don't know, it's hard to... it's like joy. It's just joy, like seeing this reaction or seeing the impact that this has on people. It just makes me so happy.

Leo

Wow. It occurs to me a lot of artists create in solitude by themselves and then like, you know, hopefully in the future, you put that work out there and it has some kind of impact on someone. But you don't know what that's going to be and so you're developing it kind of in this echo chamber, isolated from everybody else.

But you're bringing that impact and that experience with others into the creation process itself. And so I'm sure you've had both experiences and I'm wondering what that's like for you to go from solitude to actually creating your art with someone else.

Maria

Yeah. It's definitely a different experience. I think both are absolutely valid. I think from an artist's perspective, if you do the art with yourself, you're also doing it for yourself because sometimes there's things, you know, trauma or certain emotions that you need to process and you want to bring that into your art.

Or just for the creative process because once you are doing the creative act, you know, you're in the flow. It's kind of a mindfulness exercise in a way as well, right? For yourself.

And then it might have an impact on someone in the future, but that's not really why you're doing it at that moment. That's more of a... and that's cool too. I mean, if you think about meditation and things like that, you do that for yourself, right? And you do that in solitude. But doing a creative exercise as a collaborative exercise is fantastic.

It's different though. It's just a completely different approach. And yeah, I think the painting overall would probably have a bigger meaning to the person. But I don't think that if you make art because you feel compelled to make art or there's something inside of you that you need to bring to the paper or into the song that you're making, that's not really the goal then, right? That's more about yourself. But you know, both are obviously completely valid.

Leo

Yeah. Okay. So I wanted to move to the mindfulness journey and podcast. But before I do that, is there anything else that I'm missing here in this area that you really want to talk about?

Maria

I can't think of anything right now.

Leo

Okay. Well, thank you for sharing that with us. It's a powerful thing. And you know, actually before we move on, speaking to what you just shared with us, I heard in both of those the solo experience of doing it for yourself and creating your own experience and exploring your own inner world, but then doing that with someone else is exploring an inner world with the two of you.

What you're speaking to is like a transformative experience of art in both cases, right? And I just really wanted to acknowledge that you're creating... each of those that you spoke about is creating some kind of transformation. Like it could be therapy for yourself, processing stuff, and a lot more. But I just wanted to acknowledge that. And I think that's really beautiful.

Maria

Yeah. And that's why art therapy exists.

Leo

Beautiful. Okay. So let's go to the mindfulness journey. It sounds like the mindfulness journey preceded the podcast and led to it. So can you start with the mindfulness journey? Like what started that for you? What's that been like and then how did it lead to the podcast?

Maria

Yeah. So as I mentioned before, the mindfulness journey started with the birth of my kid or with having a child.

Leo

The big thing.

Maria

Yeah, it really was. And I think it started with looking into mindful parenting. The reason I was interested in that is that, you know, both my husband and I, there's certain things that we didn't enjoy in our childhood and, you know, trying to kind of heal from that but also making sure that we don't pass anything on to the child.

So that was the biggest part. Looking into different gentle parenting, mindful parenting, and specifically, I don't know if you know him, Dan Siegel...

Leo

I wouldn't say I'm that knowledgeable.

Maria

He wrote a couple of books around child development and parenting as well as for adults. He is a neuroscientist, I believe, who explored the mindfulness part of that. So it's kind of like the brain side of mindfulness, which is very interesting. He was exploring the development of the child and how we react to certain things, emotional regulation, and everything around that.

So that was the first one. And my friend, who is the other co-host, she went on her own journey. She started training as a meditation and yoga teacher. She did that. She was also very much into environmental and mindfulness topics. They even started living in a tiny house for a while.

And we were talking about it. We were just sharing. And we said, you know, we want to explore this more. And I don't know, someone said we should have a podcast. And then I think the biggest reason for the podcast is also to create a space where we can regularly talk about this. It's also a tool for accountability so we don't lose track of it.

You regularly explore things mindfully and we decided to call it "Becoming Mindful." Because it's about our journey and hopefully helpful for others who are on that journey as well. Where we can talk about our experiences, how things change, because you learn new things and you revise older opinions.

And one of the important things we thought was to explore the intersectionality of mindfulness with all other things in life, especially things that are important to someone that's a woman, like feminism, also with climate topics, with just general social things, topics that are important for humans. So, and daily life, of course.

Leo

Amazing. What's that been like? So there's, you know, talking about the creative process, you've talked about doing that with your art and doing that art with others. But here you are creating a podcast. It's a very different medium than your other art. But and with someone else, well.

Actually, one thing I noticed is that this is, you know, a podcast could be like, I'm creating this for others, but there I also heard in there, there's a lot of like, we're creating this for ourselves, for our own journey and accountability and growth. And hopefully someone else will get something out of this too, but that's not necessarily the entire point. Is that true?

Maria

Yeah. I think I would equate that too when I talked about the solo versus the group, communal experience. And I think the podcast started more as that solo even though we're two people, but more for us. And I think we have in the back of our minds that we want to expand it to something that includes others, but it started definitely out more for us.

Leo

Yeah, I get that. Beautiful. And then, so what's that been like just creating something for yourself but with another person? How's that creative process been for you?

Maria

Yeah, it's been great. It's also a great learning for how to collaborate with someone on something like that. You have different styles and just note-taking even, and how do you want to do this? Do you want to have a detailed script or not? And so it was very interesting from that perspective.

And I really loved also that it challenged us to find topics that we haven't really looked at yet. So something that is challenging our own research to really go into things and find out more and learn more about mindfulness. And also bringing it more into our lives because you want to apply those things or new practices and being more aware in your life.

Leo

I love that. What I love about that is that you're not just using the podcast as a medium to share what you already know, but to explore what you don't.

Maria

Yeah. We also did a few book reviews. So we chose a book to read and then we read it and then we talked about it on the podcast. So we did, for example, we did a book from Thich Nhat Hanh, which one was that? "The Art of Living," I think. And we did, which I really loved, "Braiding Sweetgrass." I don't know if you've read that before but that is an amazing book.

Leo

I know of it. Yeah, I haven't read it. Amazing.

Maria

Yeah. So that's one of the things. And we even had a few interview guests as well to bring an outside perspective and to discuss it as well.

Leo

Oh, I love that. I'd love to check out those book reviews and those episodes. Let's see. I think I'm curious about anything that comes up for you that makes maybe a blocker or fears or anything like that as we look at the podcast but also your more visual art.

So, you know, you mentioned before you get on a call with one of these people you're collaborating with and leading like there might be a little bit of shakiness. I'm wondering what is... People might get the impression that you have no fears and this is just all easy and no struggles at all. But I'm wondering if you could let us in and see if there is anything like that.

Maria

Yeah. Yeah. So if I think about the podcast, for example, I think there's definitely always some self-doubt or there's also sometimes worry about communication skills, I guess. So some of those, I guess it's a fear of failure that comes up. Right? Kind of making a fool of yourself.

Or even just thinking, miscommunication, worry of miscommunication even with my podcast partner. I think it also is like, I don't know how to describe it but it's kind of like, is this something that's even interesting or worthy?

And I think that comes in both art and the podcast. Kind of like the "Who am I to do this?" Right? Like, yeah. Yeah. Am I even good enough for that? Or will people get anything out of it? And I don't know, like, you know, the feeling of you're doing something that you're full of yourself or something like that.

Leo

I totally get that. And the interesting thing is like, you don't have to expose yourself to those fears. You could just not do the art or the podcast but you are. And so those are going to surface. You're exposing yourself to those kinds of risks of those fears. And I'm wondering what makes that worthwhile to you? And then how do you work with those fears when they do come up?

Maria

Yeah. So yeah, I absolutely feel those fears. And they are definitely blocking in certain ways to, you know, be it procrastination or distracting myself, you know, not posting something if I wanted to share more so more people can be reached, for example.

How do I deal with them? I think, you know, I've done a few of your Uncertainty Challenges. And I really like that as a tool to lean into that a little bit more. So that has helped tremendously.

Leo

I'll just interrupt you if that's okay just because I think not everybody knows what that is. It's in Fearless Living Academy and every month we have a new four-week challenge where you can join in with others, be a part of a group, and then take on something that's giving you uncertainty and then actually commit yourself to practicing with that.

And so, yeah, that's it. I love that that structure has helped you to face some of these fears because I really get if you're able to do that you're able to create your art.

Maria

Right. Yeah.

Leo

Yeah. Thanks for sharing that.

Maria

And I think the other thing is once it's set up, once I make a date for, "Oh, we're going to record this episode now," or "I'm going to have this visualization session," there is this commitment to or this accountability that, well, I can't let them down either, right?

So it's the importance of the person to me or maybe that's a people pleaser thing but it helps me. So you can also sometimes use that to help yourself get over this. "I really don't want to do this but no, I'm not going to cancel because then I would be letting them down."

Leo

Yeah. People might judge themselves for using that kind of like, "I'm going to show up because there's another person there," but I say that's a human thing to want to show up for another person.

Maria

Well, and they deserve that too, you know. They deserve at least my commitment to them.

Leo

Yeah. Okay. So committing to someone else helps you to show up despite those fears. Anything else that's helped you to work with those fears?

Maria

I think for the art and actually also for the podcast, it's kind of like remembering why I want to do this or what’s at stake, kind of like what, you know. And then once it happens, you know, and you collect positive reinforcement, let’s say it this way, over time as well, the more you do it.

Because every podcast episode, I might be nervous. I might think, "Oh, I don't want to do this. Can I do something else?" But once I do the episode, I'm excited. We have this amazing conversation. And after the episode, I'm just elated. It was great. I loved it. And that helps for the next round and the next round.

And the same with the art, you know. You have one visualization session where you're a little nervous maybe before or start one artwork. Visual artwork, especially with watercolors, which I work with mostly, has this phase where it just looks ugly. It just looks like this is the ugliest thing. And then you have to kind of trust the process. So it’s something that comes with the territory.

So then once you’re done, every time you’ve finished another artwork, you have something there that you can use and say, "Hey, I know you're worried but remember last time it worked out."

Leo

I love that. It’s like a building of self-trust and self-confidence, right? Just through repeated practice, repeated actions.

Maria

Yes.

Leo

Awesome. That’s amazing. Thanks for sharing that.

Okay. Another topic that you’ve touched on that I really want to come back to, you’ve talked about parenting. And I know, you know, we’re talking about creating but parenting is creating. So I really want to hear a little bit more about your journey.

You talked about gentle parenting and mindful parenting. I’d love to just hear a little bit for maybe something that a new parent might want to hear who’s interested in these topics, like anything that you’ve been learning, really glad that you learned from different books and bringing it into your parenting. Is there anything you want to share about that topic?

Maria

Yeah. I think it is definitely creating too because you’re creating an environment for the child, a safe environment for the child to grow up in and to learn, the opportunity to learn and be safe and not have to worry about things that a child shouldn’t worry about.

And I think the biggest piece I would say about mindful and gentle parenting is looking at the child as a person. They’re a full person. Even though they may not have as much experience in life as you do because they just don’t have the years but they’re still a person.

They are still a person and especially they are also a person that doesn’t have a fully developed brain. So, you know, trying to nurture growth, safety, and love, and anything you’re struggling with they’re going to probably struggle with even more. Think about emotional regulation.

And if you think of, you know, if you would cut your spouse slack for it, then you have to cut even more slack for your child because they’re just a child. They’re just learning. And I feel that a lot of the practices that we learn in mindfulness training and things like emotional regulation and everything that we learn, right? The resistance and finding the joy at failure, all of that applies to children as well.

And if you can bring that to them early then they have something that they can use. It’s like a toolbox. Something they can use when life gets harder inevitably because they’re going to be an adult. So something like a foundation.

Leo

Sorry. I cut you off. Go ahead. I’ll let you finish.

Maria

I don’t know what I was going to say anymore.

Leo

My bad. But you mentioned emotional regulation and I think it’s such an important topic with parenting but also as adults. I think a lot of us weren’t actually taught that as kids and we’re still trying to learn that no matter how old we are. And it helps so much with the creative pursuit of facing some of these fears that you mentioned.

So if we could learn emotional regulation, we can deal with all of these fears that are coming up. And I’m wondering maybe you can share with us a little bit about how you’ve been helping your daughter learn that.

Maria

Yeah. So I think one of the biggest pieces is the reactivity as a parent as well. And as you said, most of us have not been taught this. And so it’s kind of a re-parenting of myself as well. So you don’t quickly jump into getting upset or something with your child. So there’s that pause, that breathing.

So that’s one of the things I do with her too. If she gets too excited or something’s going on, we’re like, “Hey, let’s just pause for a second, three deep breaths.” There’s a cute one that is the hot chocolate breathing. So you sniff your chocolate and then you blow it because it’s hot.

So that’s kind of like a regulation. So you kind of stop, pause. And then before you react, somewhere I read it’s like count to ten or something like that. Because from a brain perspective, your upper brain is not engaged when you’re emotional. So you have this reaction that you kind of have to wait. So you don’t do the fight, flight, freeze.

Leo

Freeze.

Maria

Something like that. Yeah. So you kind of go through that. So that’s definitely breathing helps. And one of the big ones is understanding emotions. Just like how do you feel right now? If you’re upset, I see you’re upset. Well, I think you’re upset. Do you feel upset?

There are things like emotion charts where you have the little faces. Just naming it, naming how you feel, saying it out loud. And then another exercise that we do is if you’re angry or upset, you can visualize it as a storm, like a rain cloud. And then try to be like, okay, what if I close the window and I just watch the storm, watch the little rain cloud just go by.

So do some of those mindfulness exercises. Yeah, but in general, one of the big questions I always ask myself when something is going on is, is this really important? Do I really need to react to this immediately? So it’s not an emergency. But that’s kind of like because we love to react quickly. Like, “Oh my God,” or something like this.

Leo

Yeah, we don’t always have that perspective when we’re caught up in it, right? Beautiful. Thank you for sharing all of that. I really, I know that parenting isn’t necessarily the normal topic of creativity, but actually I really do believe everything with parenting is relevant to what we’re talking about here.

And you could see emotional regulation and the things you shared, mindfulness and breathing and just observing and getting to know your emotions and even just allowing yourself to feel all of those things. Such a powerful thing. I love that you’re doing that for your daughter. What a huge gift.

Maria

Well, I’m doing it for myself.

Leo

Yeah. Re-parenting yourself. Amazing. Well, we’re out of time. I’m sure we could talk all day. I think we have a lot of things to talk about, but what you’ve shared with us has been a huge gift. So I just want to say thank you, Maria, for coming onto the podcast and sharing a bit about your journey but also what you’re creating in the world with your daughter, in this podcast, with your own journey, and then in collaboration with others. Really, really gorgeous work and I appreciate you sharing all of it with us.

Maria

Yeah. Well, thank you for having me and giving me this opportunity to talk about it. I really love your work as well, which is why I joined Fearless Living Academy. And yeah, this podcast has been really cool as well. I am very happy to be here.

Leo

I'm glad to hear that. Well, thank you, Maria. I hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you, everybody, for listening or watching. I will talk to you all later.

If you haven't already, please subscribe to this podcast in your favorite podcast app. If you found this episode useful, please share this podcast with someone you know, who cares deeply. That would be really meaningful to me. And, if you'd like to dive deeper with me into this work, please check out the blog at zenhabits.net or get in touch at [email protected].

Thanks for listening, and I hope you'll join me every Wednesday for more episodes of the Zen Habits podcast.